Feminism and Slutty Clothes
Jan 20, 2007 Print This Post
.:mood:. I’m not telling
.:itunes:. Tongue by R.E.M.
OK, this is interesting. I very rarely quote an entire post, but this one by Liam Kinnon has to be posted in its entirety to be understood.
Therefore, I am going to post it without commentary. I would like you to comment on it, then after a bit of time has gone by, I will give you my perspective.
Feminists, you can stop now.
And by that I mean you can stop yelling at men. I know it seems that the world is unfairly skewed our way. It actually is. However this has ceased to be mens fault. Either start yelling at the women who decide to dress like sluts. Or stop dressing like one yourself.
Every time I hear about girls going to a pimps and hoes party, or some such thing that involves guys remaining modestly, if garishly, dressed while the girls dress like they stopped buying clothes after hitting kindergarden, I get mad. Every time I see a girl walking around in public wearing less than she probably should, I stare, then I get mad.
Why am I mad? it could be because that these pimps and hoes parties normally take place at university or at the earliest late high school. These institutions are the bastions of liberal thought, yet girls are taught the paradoxical idea that somehow a liberal view of sexuality and using the fact that men find women more attractive than women find men can somehow be balanced with women being mens equals. If you are willing to dress the way men want you to dress and fall into the stereotype that other women have fought and are fighting against you have lost your right to criticize the unbalanced nature of the world as it stands right now.
Or maybe it is because it is false to say that men are pigs for staring at you, and than to dress yourself provocatively. There is a constant fight for the idea of a “woman”. A woman can complain as often as she wants that men have over-sexualized their view of women. However until women start to take responsibility for how they dress and how they present their image en masse you can’t fault men. “But men design and sell the clothes”, Don’t buy them. “But that means not buying any clothes, they’re all designed that way”, not necessarily, maybe look a little harder. I know a number of women who manage to dress attractively without overly emphasizing their womanly features for lack of a better term. How hard do they have to look to do that, I don’t know, I don’t shop for women, I rarely shop for myself.
I can see some of you saying that this is an unfair comment, how can we judge people based on what they wear. However I think it is fair to say that we judge people if they dress like a punk, or a skater, or have an eyebrow piercing. Are these judgments fair? Maybe not, but you know what you are getting yourself into when you decide to make these things a part of your appearance. There are still enough women dressing in an inappropriate fashion that I feel these comments are merited.
There is a certain irony that the women’s lib thing really took off in the sixties right about the same time that this overtly sexualized image started becoming popular. It is almost as if there has been a fight over what woman means and what her place in the world is since then. I think the best thing for feminists to do is to shift their sights off the evils of men and start closely analyzing their role in equality. At least the role image plays in mens perception of women.
Tags: femininity
January 20th, 2007 at 12:24 pm
I confess that I struggled with this when I first read it. Possibly my boomer feminist sensibilities were easily offended by what, on first reading, appeared to be a conflation of feminism and women wearing overly provocative clothing. I asked a number of millenials (male and female) I know to read it to see if it just wasn’t a lack of understanding on my part. They told me they agreed with the writer. I was surprised.
I’d never heard of the “pimps and hoes” parties – until reading this post (at its point of origin). The concept is both disgusting and profoundly sad.
Do I believe that leading feminists should respond? Yes. I also believe that we all need to respond to a media/marketing world that tells young women that they need to amp up their sex appeal to be attractive to men – to a music world that celebrates calling women hoes and bitches (and I happen to like Rap) – to a fashion world that only now is getting the message that they are killing young women with their zombie model images – and to a significant portion of the church world that wants to put women “in their place”.
Liam is my eldest son and he and I have talked at length about this post. I wouldn’t have posted it. I’m not him. I’ve linked to a number of his posts at my blog. I didn’t link to this one.
Thanks for opening up the discussion here, Noel.
January 20th, 2007 at 1:47 pm
The author is missing the point of the issue. However, I do agree with his general encouragement to challenge women to not dress as sexual objects… That said, I believe that most women desire to be viewed as sexual objects, but not limited to the role… and that I do not beleive can be done. I believe that our (fallen) human nature longs in every way for attention, both positive and negative. Therefore, it is the resposability of all humanity to be active in persuading both men and women to experience one another through the means that our creator designed us as, that being the relationship of brothers and sisters. Modestly and purity is therefore an issue, but it is not the issue. Modestly is a prescription while the overall diagnosis runs much deeper. So, as a Christian, I push, pull and persuade and then attempt to heal the wounded from this folly, but I put my efforts into the proclaimation of the Gospel and the equipping of the saints for the maturing of disciples that we might reach those we are among and be a preserving presence in our world until Christ returns.
that said… blahhh… i’m done.
January 20th, 2007 at 11:37 pm
You really think these two are one in the same? Really? There is virtually no overlap. You have conflated two groups of women here who generally completely disagree with each other. Yelling at one because of the faults of the other probably just pisses them both off.
And to Ken’s “most women desire to be viewed as sexual objects” again i say…really?
Sorry, but i think this wreaks of the anti-sexuality that permeates most of Christianity and has lumped two very different issues together (both of which may run opposed to the hypersensitivity to sex/gender issues as they are addressed in the church, but are NOT generally related outside of the church walls).
January 21st, 2007 at 3:18 pm
“LIke a gold ring in a pig’s snout,
is a beautiful woman that shows no discretion.”
I just read this in Proverbs 11 and thought of this post.
I didn’t really get the connection he was making, other than when female “celebrities” use the female empowerment retoric (sp?) to justify showing no discretion.
In my opinion the feminist movement has helped women in many ways, but it’s also damaged women in many ways. I don’t think this post is necessarily a productive, or even valid way to attack feminisms faults.
- sean
January 21st, 2007 at 6:55 pm
Physician, heal thyself…
That’s the cliche that comes to my mind reading this post – it makes me think that often, yes, I find that the feminists come across as far more concerned about reworking the world of men than examining their own role.
We’re talking about very broad stereotypes, of course, and individuals’ exposure to the feminist movement can be radically different. But it is striking to me that many of my encounters with feminists has focused on how the men ought to give women more equality, respect, power, etc. Generally, I would characterize the feminist movement as seeing itself as being for women’s liberty.
A problem is that women are not terribly responsible with liberty. (Neither are men…) When one defines the fight as a fight for more rights, how does one begin to deal with the abuse of freedom? How does one acknowledge that some freedoms (dressing provocatively) hamper other liberties (not being seen as sex objects)?
I think it’s great to address how men interact with women. It’s probably equally important to address how women interact with men…and as the author discusses, I’m not sure the feminist movement has done that well.
January 21st, 2007 at 9:56 pm
I find it interesting that this thread has been totally composed of men discussing feminism. I don’t think that this is necessarily a bad thing, I’m just wondering where the female viewpoint is?
To me, feminism is a very broad term. In my studies of feminist theories, it seems that it most concerned with inequalities of power of all sorts, especially where they are based on socially constructed divisions, such as race and gender roles.
In response to the specific article, as a man I can understand the frustration. In Romans, Paul admonishes us to not cause others to stumble, which has definite application here. I don’t think that women bear total responsibility here, and I agree that the situation is a product of the fall.
January 22nd, 2007 at 1:06 am
I am not sure what jimi’s criticism actually is… possibly we can get together at la colombe and discuss it over an excellent coffee…
I really appreciate Al’s insight that liberty doesn’t breed responsability and we should not be surprized at either gender disapointing those who seek good…
is it insensative of me to use the word “breed” in a discusion on femenism?
January 22nd, 2007 at 1:43 am
I’m was a womens studies major in college. The reason I have waited to respond is because my initial reaction was horror. Disgust even.
I know that I can only speak for myself, so I will. Feminism for me means that I will fight be given the same opportunities, treated with the same respect, and paid equally to my male counterparts. Yes this is a very simplistic explanation, but for this discussion it is sufficient.
Clothing and modesty are a personal decision. What I deem as an attractive and modest outfit, might be seen as something else depending on the person. Example: a black turtleneck, below the knee leather skirt, black opaque tights with boots. Am I showing any skin whatsoever in this ensemble? No. Could someone viewing this outfit deem it as immodest, perhaps if they view leather clothing as “slutty” or even viewing the color black as being too sexy.
As I said, it’s completely personal. To be frank, I dress more adventurously now that I am married with a daughter, than I ever dressed before. Does that mean I have abandon all thoughts of modesty?- No. It does mean that I dress myself in a way that I am content with and one that (hopefully) makes my husband proud.
I do want to state that I am horrified more by the use of derogatory words toward women in this article, than I am the ignorance of the writer. He’s obviously never lived a day in the life of a women. I believe that he should have chosen his argument a bit more precisely. His words are dangerous and more hurtful than I hope he intended them to be.
January 22nd, 2007 at 2:07 am
[...] There is a weird elevation of sexuality to a place of supreme importance in the Christian world from a negative angle, that i have never been quite able to stomach. There is this language in the evangelical world where “Sin is sin” (meant to indicate that all sins are equally not of God. This i am in agreement with). But then there is a ridiculous focus turned to areas of sexual sin, while a blind eye is turned to any number of others (if we limit it just to the “7 deadly sins” the [lack of] focus on the other 6 doesn’t equate to their prevalence within most churches when compared to this one – especially within men’s groups). And the whole discussion around this on the post where i got roped into this just seems to continue walking around in the same circle about that. A bunch of guys discussing how feminism has turned women into sexual objects and telling the feminists to clean up their mess. [...]
January 22nd, 2007 at 5:45 am
I also agree with the gist of what some of the other commenters are saying: Often feminists are just as frustrated about the women in rap videos as the author of the post is, so to throw them together is questionable at best.
On the other hand, I googled ‘”feminists against” pornography’ and ALL the top results were feminist groups against all forms of censorship and FOR pornography, which seems to validate the author’s point – it seems quite self-contradictory to me to be railing against men looking at women as objects and yet railing for the forms of media which have no small influence in causing men to view them that way.
So in any case it’s an interesting discussion which makes it even more disappointing to me that the author had to use hyperbolic language to get his point across.
January 22nd, 2007 at 9:19 am
The whole article seems overly simplified to me. I tend to agree with his point that women should take responsibility for their image and the effect it will have on how they are viewed. The fact that in this article feminists, college party girls and everyone in between are lumped together seems outrageous.
I will admit, I am no expert on this issue, but it seems even when we use the word “feminist” it encompasses a mass of people who at times completely disagree with each other. I think in the end, feminism is about the fair treatment of women. It is about respect. To try and solve this issue in six paragraphs, boiling it down to an issue of clothing, placing the blame on half of the human population seems laughable.
I think in the end we can’t shift our focus off “the evils of men”. The fact that unfair treatment of women exists is because men AND women are inherently sinful. This issue won’t be resolved in a short over simplified article.
-Jer
January 22nd, 2007 at 10:46 am
Tomorrow I will post my thoughts, but I would love to hear from more of my female readers first. I know you are out there…
Thanks, Amy. :)
January 22nd, 2007 at 3:39 pm
Although it is true that some women dress way too provocatively, you can no more say that feminists need to stop complaining because so many women dress “slutty” as say that most men are pigs. Both are simply not true. The categorization is just too broad. I see women every day that dress in a way that I think is appalling and indecent, but for every one women dressed like that there are many more who are not.
As a women I think feminism on a whole has been taken out of hand. There are places in this world where women are truly persecuted and have little to no equal rights (if ANY rights). In western society though, I’m not sure I understand all the complaining from feminists. I do believe in equal opportunity and rights for women, but [in the majority of western society] is their really that much keeping a smart ambitious woman from doing what a smart ambitious man can do? I don’t know about other women, but I personally do not experience this oppression towards women on a regular basis.
January 24th, 2007 at 12:06 pm
The feminists that I have met seem to be more interested in getting even with men than actually progressing towards equality.
That said, pimp and hoe parties are definitely degrading towards women, but so is working in the service industry where they make better tips for scantier clothing.
Women will never be able to stop men from viewing them as sexual objects, because we men tend to objectify, and the only thing that stops me (sometimes) is God.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:21 pm
I am a feminist, so if anyone even happens to read this comment, let me speak from my view.
This article is disheartening because of the complete ignorance of feminism and women’s studies. The author obviously has no clue, and this is a very typical response from ‘christian men’ because it seems to be that a lot of religious males try to justify their boners and lust by women’s clothing.
This article completely pisses me off because you are speaking to women and girls that are striving for attention because it is how they are socialized to be. Girls are taught at a young age to gain male’s attention, or to keep occupied with being ‘beautiful’ and concerned with ‘weight, celebrities, and fashion’.
This article is about the sad, disgusting truth that many women live their lives for male approval. Do you think I am angry at these women? At first I was, but being angry isn’t a solution.
Have you looked at any advertisements, television shows, or movies lately?
Must have not, because most women/girls featured are always, always beautiful, and often scantily clad. Ever heard of the term ‘male gaze’?
Feminism for me is a gender issue, not a sexual freedom/struggle. It’s using gender to discriminate. It’s putting women as the ‘weaker sex’, or second class to males. Take a look at our nation’s officeholders and you know what I mean.
Do not, NOT, direct this towards feminists. You obviously don’t know many.
So, all in all, nice try placing the blame. which according to the bible, man was the first to do it. :)